Notes - Rules for fencers

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Changes for v 6.0

2.1

2.1.1 in When you are allowed to fence

Was
You must be authorised in fencing to participate in any combat event.
Now
You must be authorised in fencing to participate in any combat event. You need to be able to prove that you are authorised by presenting a current authorisation card or valid temporary paperwork.
Functional change
None. Reminder that you need to prove that you are authorised.
Reason
Reminder that you need to prove that you are authorised to participate.
For notes section
June 2023 - A reminder that you need to prove that you are authorised to participate by presenting a current authorisation card, or your temporary paperwork until your card arrives.

2.1.2 in When you are allowed to fence

Was
To be authorised, you have to pass a verbal and practical test to show that you...
Now
To be authorised, you have to pass a verbal and practical combat test to show that you...
Functional change
Addition of the word "combat" to highlight that the practical component must include combat
Reason
The handbook currently has two phrases meaning the same component of the authorising process. This combines them.
For notes section
June 2023 - The practical component of authorisations must include combat.

2.1.5 in When you are allowed to fence

Additional text
If you are not legally fit to drive, you are not fit to fight.
Functional change
None
Reason
Mirroring language in armoured handbook, doubling down on importance of proper judgement when fighting.
For notes section
None required

2.1.6 in When you are allowed to fence

Was
If you suffer an injury involving bleeding, you must leave the field immediately. You must have the wound cleaned and dressed before you return to the field. Any weapons, equipment or clothing that have visible blood on them must be cleaned, or not used further.
Now
If you have an injury involving free flowing blood, you must leave the field immediately and may not return until the flow of blood has stopped. Clean affected weapons and equipment before use.Clean affected weapons and equipment before use.
Functional change
Wait until bleeding has stopped before returning to the field. Dressing the wound not specifically required, though may be practical to prevent further irritation.
Reason
Matches wording in Armoured Combat rules 4.2.7. Dressing the wound may not be required once bleeding has stopped, and clothing may be permanently stained with blood even after laundering.

2.1.7

Insert new rule, and renumber subsequent rules
If there is an incident where you think you may have been concussed, you must leave the field immediately, and may not return to combat activities of any type until cleared to do so by a healthcare professional. The signs and symptoms of suspected concussion can be found in Concussion in Sport Group's Concussion Recognition Tool 5.
Functional change
Mirroring the requirements for withdrawing if bleeding, and aligning with the injury management procedures. You must leave the field if you suspect you have been concussed.
Reason
We want to highlight the risk of concussion, and help our people learn to recognise it in themselves and other participants.
For notes section
June 2023 - We have added this rule to help you know what to do if you think you might have been concussed, and how to recognise it. Even minor head injuries can have long-term consequences if not treated with due care.

2.2

2.2.4 in Fighting by the rules

Was
You are not allowed to make uncontrolled attacks such as running at your opponent.
Now
You are not allowed to make uncontrolled attacks such as running at your opponent with your weapon extended.
Functional change
None, clarification only.
Reason
Running is explicitly legal, this points out the unsafe aspect which must be restrained.
For notes section
June 2023 - Clarified that you can't run at your opponent with your weapon extended.

2.2.7.b in Fighting by the rules

Was
check if you or someone else is in danger - then move your weapons to a non-threatening position
Now
check if you or someone else is in danger - then move your weapons to a non-threatening position, such as pointing loaded rubber band guns at the ground, or resting the muzzle or point of your weapon on your shoe to keep it out of the dirt.
Functional change
None. Gunners didn't previously have good guidance as to what was "non-threatening".
Reason
Gunners didn't previously have good guidance as to what was "non-threatening".
For notes section
June 2023 - Guidance for gunners added as to what to do with RBGs during holds. Point your loaded RBG at the ground or rest the muzzles on your foot so that any accidental discharge doesn't strike anyone else.

2.2.8 in Fighting by the rules

Insert new rule and renumber subsequent rules
A call of "Hold!" stops combat for an entire field. There are no "local holds" in Lochac fencing.
Functional change
None. Clarfication following query about local holds.
Reason
Clarfication following query about local holds. We aren't big enough to be able to stop fencing in one part of a war field and have it continue elsewhere.
For notes section
June 2023 - Clarification that we don't use local holds in our fencing wars and melees.

2.2.9 in Fighting by the rules

Insert new rule and renumber subsequent rules
Masks and other protective equipment must remain on during a "Hold!" until a marshal calls "masks off".
Functional change
None, codifying current practice.
Reason
Improved protection from accidental discharge of missile weapons.
For notes section
June 2023 - Clarification added to keep your armour on during holds until a marshal instructs otherwise

2.2.10 in Fighting by the rules

Insert new rule and renumber subsequent rules
Marshals must ensure that rubber band guns are safely discharged before calling "masks off" after a Hold is called.
Functional change
There is a clear obligation to ensure RBGs are unloaded before masks can be removed.
Reason
There was no clear obligation to ensure RBGs were unloaded before masks were removed.
For notes section
June 2023 - Marshals must ensure that everyone has safely discharged all loaded rubbber band guns before calling "masks off" after a Hold.

2.3

2.3.1 in Issues on the field

Was
After a bout, the person supervising the field will ask you if you are satisfied with the outcome. This is a chance for you to talk to your opponent about any concerns you have.
Now
After a bout, the person supervising the field will ask you if you are satisfied with the outcome. This is a chance for you to talk to your opponent about any concerns you have and resolve issues before leaving the field.
Functional change
None
Reason
We encourage fighters to resolve issues on the field.
For notes section
Use notes for 2.3.3.

2.3.3 in Issues on the field

Was
If you leave the field without raising any issues, you are considered to be satisfied with the outcome and cannot raise the issue later. The exception is if there is an emergency situation, such as being taken off the field because of an injury.
Now
Removed and subsequent rule renumbered.
Functional change
You can raise an issue after combat - on the field is not necessarily the best time for these discussions.
Reason
The removed rule negatively affected people who were unable to commence conflict, particularly with someone in a position of power, and also conflicted with other rules in this section.
For notes section
June 2023 - A previous rule about being considered satisfied with the outcome, and not being able to raise an issue with the fight once you have left the field was removed. It may not be possible or appropriate to resolve all issues on the field, though you are encouraged to try.

2.4

2.4.1.1 in Types of fencing - General

Additional text
(sometimes called simply "rapier")
Functional change
None
Reason
Clarification following a query
For notes section
Not required

2.4.1.2 in Types of fencing - General

Was
Not in rules previously
Now
Different types of fencing combat cannot face each other in the same bout. For example, Cut and Thrust may not face Standard fencing.
Subsequent rules renumbered
Functional change
Prevents opponents from using different rules in the same bout.
Reason
Bouts must operate under a single ruleset; this change prevents a clash. Was not clear previously.
For notes section
June 2023 - Clarified that the different fencing types may not be used in the same bout - eg one opponent may not use Cut and Thrust rules while the other uses Standard Fencing rules.

2.4.2.2 in Types of fencing - Prerequisites

Was
There is no waiting period for obtaining these additional authorisations.
Now
There is no waiting period for obtaining these additional authorisations, and you may complete them at the same event or practice as your Standard fencing authorisation.
Functional change
None, clarification
Reason
Clarification following query from participant.
For notes section
June 2023 - Clarification that you can complete multiple authorisations at one parctice or event in order to meet prerequisite requirements.

2.4.2.3 in Types of fencing - Prerequisites

Was
You can use a spear if you have a current Rapier Pike or Pole Weapon authorisation under the previous Lochac Rapier Rules.
Now
You can use a spear if you have a current Rapier Pike or Pole Weapon authorisation under prior Lochac Rapier Rules.
Functional change
None. Grammar change only
Reason
Rapier Pike and Pole Weapon appear in earlier rule sets, but not v5 which these rules supersede.
For notes section
Not required.

2.5

2.5 in Single combat and melee

Updated section numbers in 2.5.2.4, and 2.5.3.4

2.5.2.5 in Single combat and melee - Melee

Was
You cannot turn your back on an opponent to gain an advantage (that is, to stop them attacking you). If you do turn your back on an opponent during an engagement, you might be attacked.
Now
You cannot turn your back on an opponent to gain an advantage (that is, to stop them attacking you). If you do this intentionally, you may be subject to sanctions under section 4.6.
Functional change
Additional restriction, aligns with other kingdoms and armoured combat rules, makes clear this potentially unsafe act is against the rules.
Reason
Aligns with other kingdoms and armoured combat rules, makes clear this potentially unsafe act is against the rules.
For notes section
June 2023 - Clarification that deliberately turning your back to gain advantage is against the rules and you may be sanctioned for it.

2.5.2.7 in Single combat and melee - Melee

Additional text
Two-handed weapons, including spears, must be held vertically while running, with the point up.
Functional change
Points of two handed meapons must be held up vertically when running.
Reason
At Rowany Festival there were several close calls where control was lost during running due to loose terrain or unexpected action from an opponent. It is significantly easier to mitigate an accidental strike with a single handed weapon, so two handed weapons must be subject to additional care.
For note section
June 2023 - There is a potential to lose control when running, due to loose terrain or unexpected action from an opponent. It is significantly easier to mitigate an accidental strike with a single handed weapon, so you must take extra care with two handed weapons.

2.5.3.2 and 2.5.3.2.a in Single combat and melee - Gunners

Additional text
You are not restricted to scarves associated with ranks in the Guild of Defence, and if you are wearing Guild scarves, a White Scarf, or other scarves as part of your clothing, you need to be aware that this may suggest to other fencers that you are a Gunner.
a. If you have a Standard fencing authorisation, but are carrying only a gun, you can choose to wear scarves on both arms and be subject to the rules for killing gunners, or choose to not wear scarves and be slain as normal for a fencer.
Functional change
Allows fencers to choose whether to act as a standard fencer with a gun, or a dedicated gunner who cannot be struck.
Reason
Scarves are already a common sight on the fencing field, this points out a potential issue that fencers should consider when armouring, and allows fencers to choose whether to act as a standard fencer with a gun, or a dedicated gunner who cannot be struck.
For notes section
June 2023 - Because Gunners are required to wear scarves on both arms to indicate that they are non-fencing combatants, other fencers need to be aware not to wear so many other scarves (such as the White Scarf, or a Guild rank scarf) that they are not mistaken for a Gunner. Fencers may also to choose whether to act as a standard fencer with a gun, or a dedicated gunner who cannot be struck.

2.6

2.6.2

  • What was 2.6.2.1 Killing from behind has been renumbered to 2.6.3 to avoid a numbering clash with 2.6.2 Striking your opponent's sub rules.
  • What was 2.6.2.2 Killing a gunner has been renumbered to 2.6.4 to avoid a numbering clash with 2.6.2 Striking your opponent's sub rules.
  • Subsequent rules have been renumbered.

2.6.2.2 in Strking your opponent

Was
You are not allowed to strike your opponent with any other part of the sword or dagger except the blade.
Now
You are not allowed to strike your opponent with any other part of the sword or dagger except the blade and point.
Functional change
None, clarification
Reason
Follows discussions as to whether a blade and point are different, considering construction of spear heads which obviously have a blade you can't use, and act only as a point.
For notes section
June 2023 - Clarifies that the point of the sword and dagger can also be used to strike your opponent.


2.6.2.4

Was
You and your opponent need to agree to allow the use of tip cuts before the bout
Now
Removed
Subsequent rules renumbered
Functional change
Opponents no longer need to agree to the use of tip cuts beforre they can be used.
Reason
Tip cuts are an accepted part of fencing combat in Lochac.
For notes section
June 2023 - Tip cuts are an accepted part of fencing combat in Lochac, so the previous requirement to agree to use them has been removed.

Was 2.6.2.1, now 2.6.3

Was
Not in rules
Now
2.6.3.3 - You must use "killing from behind" when you are behind the line of your opponent's shoulders. Marshals may further restrict this angle at their discretion.
2.6.3.4 - If “killing from behind” is not allowed in the scenario, you may not strike your opponent while behind the line of your opponent’s shoulders.
Functional change
Clarification added for when killing from behind may be used, and allows marshals to add additional restrictions
Reason
Adds clarity around when killing from behind can be used. Marshals will be able to add additional restrictions (such as "outside of 120 degrees of the front arc"), but this is very difficult to clearly legislate.
For notes section
June 2023 - Clarification added for when killing from behind may be used, and allows marshals to add additional restrictions

Was 2.6.2.2.3, now 2.6.4.3 in Killing a gunner

Was
If you are behind a gunner, you can kill them by using the 'killing from behind' rules.
Now
If you are behind a gunner, you can kill them by using the "killing from behind" rules, if they are allowed in this scenario.
Functional change
None
Reason
Clarification that explicit permission must be given for using killing from behind in any scenario
For notes
Use note for update above.

Was 2.6.4.1 and 2.6.4.1.a , now 2.6.6.1 in Rubber band guns

Was
You can use a rubber band gun for melee combat, or for single combat that is not a tournament, such as bouting.
(a) In accordance with the Rules of the Lists, rubber band guns are not allowed to be used within the Lists of a tournament.
Now
You can use a rubber band gun for melee combat, or for single combat that is not a tournament. The Rules of the List don't allow rubber band guns to be used in tournaments.
(b) now 2.6.6.2 and subsequent rules renumbered.
Functional change
None
Reason
Bouting is not defined, and a bout is usually a measure of action in a tournament. Combined 1 and a as it's explanation of the rule, and 2 is a separate rule about armouring appropriately.
For notes section
Not required, just simplifying language.

Was 2.6.4.1.b, now 2.6.6.2 in Rubber band guns

Was
When rubber band guns are used, all people on the field must be wearing protective equipment, and any unarmoured spectators must be kept further away than the effective range of the weapon.
Now
When rubber band guns are used, all people on the field must be wearing protective equipment, and any unarmoured spectators must be kept further away than the effective range of the weapon. Marshals can wear head protection (as per section 2.8.2) as a minimum.
Functional change
None. Clarifies standard practice that marshals do not need full protection when the only additional threat is a rubber band gun.
Reason
Clarifies standard practice that marshals do not need full protection when the only additional threat is a rubber band gun.
For notes section
June 2023 - Clairifation added that marshals do not need full armour when rubber band guns are the only additional threat.

2.6.6.4 in Rubber band guns

Insert new rule and renumber subsequent rules
Marshals may alter these rules to allow some objects to be indestructible and "proof" against shots, but must make this clear before lay on is called.
Functional change
Marshals may alter the scenario rules to allow some objects to be indestructible and "proof" against shots, but must make this clear before the scenario begins.
Reason
Formalising standrd practice
For note section
June 2023 - Clarification that marshals may amend scenario rules to make objects indestructable or proof against shots.

2.6.6.7 in Rubber band guns

Insert new rule
If your rubber band gun is struck by a weapon other than a rubber band, you must have it reinspected by a marshal to ensure it is not damaged or unsafe.
Functional change
None, formalises standard practice
Reason
Formalise standard practice
For notes section
June 2023 - Rule added to formalise the standard practice of having your rubber band gun inspected by a marshal if it is struck by any weapon other than a rubber band to ensure that it is still safe to use.

Was 2.6.5.2, now 2.6.7.2 in Defensive objects

Was
You are not allowed to strike your opponent with a shield, rigid defensive object or rubber band gun.
Now
You are not allowed to strike your opponent with a shield, rigid defensive object or rubber band gun. Fleeting incidental contact is allowed.
Functional change
Clarification
Reason
Makes it clear that people should not be penalised for incidental contact.
For notes section
June 2023 - Clarification that people should not be penalised for incidental contact with their opponent of their shield, rigid defensive object or rubber band gun.

Was 2.6.5.3 in Defensive objects

Was
If you defend yourself with a rubber band gun and it is damaged, you will have to check with the marshal if the rubber band gun still meets the rules to be used as a weapon.
Now
Removed (incorporated into 2.6.6 instead) and subsequent rules renumbered
Functional change
None
Reason
Better place for it and simplified language.
For notes section
Not requires, captured by other note.

Was 2.6.5.4.c, now 2.6.7.3.c in Defensive objects

Was
you can throw your cloak, or another type of non-rigid object, at your opponent to slow down their attack or defence, or as a distraction.
Now
you can throw your cloak, or another type of non-rigid object, at your opponent to slow down their attack or defence, or as a distraction. This may include briefly blocking your opponent's vision when the cloak is in front of them in the air.
Functional change
Clarification that this is allowed
Reason
Some marshals and fencers are unclear if this is legal/safe or not, despite existing language allowing it
For notes section
June 2023 - When you throw your cloak at your opponent, it may block their vision while in the air, but you may not throw it to cover their face or to trip them.

Was 2.5.4.d, now 2.6.7.3.d in Defensive Objects

Was
you must not deliberately throw your cloak over your opponent's face, or to trip them - if the cloak falls over their face, a hold should be called.
Now
you must not throw your cloak over your opponent's face, or to trip them. If the cloak falls over their face, of the fallen cloak becomes a trip hazard, a hold should be called.
Functional change
Mentions fallen cloak as a trip hazard as a reason to call a hold.
Reason
Clarifies and enhances safety.
For notes section
Not required, covered by previous note.

Was 2.6.5.6, now 2.6.7.5

Was
You can use your hand to parry your opponent's weapon or wrist. This is a change from the previous rules. You are not allowed to grasp your opponent.
Now
You can use your hand to parry your opponent's weapon or wrist. You are not allowed to grasp your opponent. Grasping includes, but is not limited to, taking hold of any part of your opponent with your hand. Fleeting incidental contact is allowed.
Functional change
None
Reason
Clarification. Adds an example of what might be grasping an opponent, and makes it clear that brief accidental contact is legal.
For notes section
June 2023 - Added an example of what might be grasping an opponent, and makes it clear that brief accidental contact is legal.


Was 2.6.5.8, now 2.6.7.8

Was
You can briefly hold your opponent's blade to control it, but both of you must agree to use grasping during the bout. Grasping should be for no more than a couple of seconds, so that you do not start wrestling for the blade.
Now
If both you and your opponent agree to use blade grasping during a bout, you can briefly hold your opponent’s blade to control it. Grasping should be for no more than a couple of seconds, so that you do not start wrestling for the blade. Blade grasping includes, but is not limited to, taking hold of an opponent's blade with your hand, or circling a blade with fingers, such as index and thumb in an "OK" sign as shown in figure 1.
Figure 1. Circling a blade with finger and thumb is an example of blade grasping.
.
Functional change
Examples of blade grasping included.
Reason
Some fencers have been known to circle a blade with an index and thumb, claiming this is not grasping the blade. This is unacceptable and unchivalric "rules lawyering" to take advantage of an unclear rule.
For notes section
June 2023 - Examples of blade grasping have been included, as this was previously unclear.

2.6.7.9 in Defensive objects

Insert new rule
When grasping, parrying, or otherwise controlling your opponent's weapon or body (such as by parrying the wrist), you must ensure you do so in a safe manner. You must avoid wrenching, twisting or pressing a joint beyond natural limits.
Functional change
Reminds fighters that these actions hold risk of hurting their opponent, so must be carried out carefully.
Reason
Accidental overextension of opponent's joints has been observed repeatedly, especially when taking control of a spear where the fighter is unable to drop the object. This emphasises the importance of control and that, should there be an incident, the burden is on the fighter who performed the action to justify their action.
For notes section
June 2023 - Following a number of incidents of accidental overextension of an opponent's joints, rule 2.6.7.9 has been added as a reminder to take care.

2.6.7.9

Was
Not in rules
Now
When grasping, parrying, or otherwise controlling your opponent's weapon or body (such as by parrying the wrist), you must ensure you do so in a safe manner. You must avoid wrenching, twisting or pressing a joint beyond natural limits.
Functional change
Reminds fighters that these actions hold risk of hurting their opponent, so must be carried out carefully.
Reason
Accidental overextension of opponent's joints has been observed repeatedly, especially when taking control of a spear where the fighter is unable to drop the object. This emphasises the importance of control and that, should there be an incident, the burden is on the fighter who performed the action to justify their action.
For notes section
June 2023 - Following a number of incidents of accidental overextension of an opponent's joints, rule 2.6.7.9 has been added as a reminder to take care.

2.7

2.7.2 & 2.7.2.a in taking blows

Was
When you fight, you are generally considered to be fighting with very sharp weapons, and wearing ordinary clothes that would not protect you.
(a) any thrust or cut that would have...
Now
When you are judging blows in a fight, remember that you are presumed to be wearing thin clothing, such as unpadded linen, not armour, and your opponent's weapon is extremely sharp on point and edge.
(a) any blow that would have...
Functional change
None
Reason
Rewording to be closer to Society rule
For note section
Not required

2.7.3

Was
The only time this changes is if organisers hold a tournament where they define areas of the body that are protected as if you were wearing real armour.
Now
The only time these rules change is if organisers hold a tournament or other event with different victory conditions, such as saying "only blows to the head count". However, organisers may not increase the force required for a blow to be "good".
Functional change
Allows for alternate scenario rules for combat.
Reason
Aligns closer to Society standard while also providing more flexibility for alternate rulesets for Marshals.
For notes section
June 2023 - Marshals may use scenarios that allow for different victory conditions, eg. restricting target areas or counted blows, but can't change required blow strength.

2.7.6.c in Taking blows

Was
If you lose both arms, you cannot hold a weapon and you cannot continue.
Now
If you lose both arms, you cannot hold a weapon and you are "killed".
Functional change
None, clarification
Reason
Clarifying unclear language
For notes section
Not required

2.7.7 in Taking blows

Was
If you are hit in the outside thigh, the lower leg or the foot, you cannot put weight on that leg....
Now
If you are hit in the thigh, the lower leg or the foot, you cannot put weight on that leg....
Functional change
None
Reason
No reason for outside to be here - inner thigh is only a kill 10cm down the inner thigh, not the whole length. Also removes confusion of inner vs outer and the border.
For notes section
Not required

2.7.7.d in Taking blows

Was
If you were hit in your lower leg or foot, you can kneel and move around on your knees. This is a change from the previous rules.
Now
If you were hit in your lower leg or foot, you can kneel and move around on your knees.
Reason
Remove redundant text. Not a change from v5.

2.7.7.e-g

Was
Not in rules
Now
(e) It is courteous to turn a kneeling or seated combatant so that they are not facing into the sun.
(f) When one combatant is kneeling or seated and the other is standing, it is forbidden for the standing combatant to circle, turn or "corkscrew" the kneeling combatant more than 90 degrees in either direction from the starting position.
(g) It is forbidden for a standing combatant to over bear or press (with body, weapon or other object) a kneeling or seated combatant to the point that the kneeling or seated combatant cannot straighten their upper body perpendicular to the ground. This rule is meant to allow the kneeling or seated combatant to straighten if they desire and is not intended to keep the standing combatant from leaning forward to stay in range if the kneeling or seated combatant leans back.
Functional change
Addition of rules to maintain the comfort of a legged fighter.
Reason
This language is taken verbatim from the Lochac Armoured Combat Handbook, and then adding "or seated". It works to ensure a more controlled bout without unnecessarily discomforting the legged fighter.
For notes section
June 2023 - Addition of rules to maintain the comfort of a legged fighter. These rules are similar to those found in armoured combat.

2.8

2.8.1.2

Was
You must wear full face protection for weapons drills using a spear.
Now
You must wear full face protection for weapons drills against an opponent using a spear.
Functional change
You must wear full face protection if you are drilling against an opponent who has a spear, rather than if you are using one yourself
Reason
Facing the spear is the risky part, not using it.
For notes section
June 2023 - You must wear full face protection when your opponent has a spear during drills.

2.8.3.1-2

Was
You must wear a gorget (collar) made from rigid material to protect your entire neck and throat. This should be backed by resilient padding or penetration-resistant material.
Now
You must wear a gorget (collar) made from rigid material to protect your entire neck and throat. This should be backed by resilient padding or penetration-resistant material. Figure 2 shows the area which must be protected.
2.8.2 has been removed and replaced by:
Neck protection with a gap of less than 9mm (for example, where the ends of two plates meet) meets this standard, so long as the gap is not within the front or rear 90 degree arc.
Functional change
Clarifies areas that must be covered by rigid material, and what sized gaps may be allowed.
Reason
Updates rules to remain practical and more in line with Society requirements, without reducing safety from existing practice.
The deleted section of this rule has not been enforced since a variation was introduced at least prior to 2008, as the understanding of "cervical verterbrae" differs from what is strictly written. As currently written, gorgets must protect the entire cervical column to the base of the skull, which no known gorgets do so (though gorget combined with rigid back of head protection often does so). This revised rule is equivalent to what fencers in Lochac are currently doing already, and what is accepted international practice. This issue has been raised with SRM on two occasions with no response; I expect because it would require a rapid change, such as what we are proposing here. There is no loss in safety by having a small gap, and Lochac rules are already stricter than Society level rules. Fencing blunts will not be able to penetrate this gap; this clarifies expectations around incidental gaps.
For notes section
June 2023 - Image added to clarify what parts of the neck must be protected by rigid material, and what sized gaps may be allowed.