Fencing Draft notes:Using Weapons And Defensive Objects: Difference between revisions

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:Follows discussions as to whether a blade and point are different, considering construction of spear heads which obviously have a blade you can't use, and act only as a point.
:Follows discussions as to whether a blade and point are different, considering construction of spear heads which obviously have a blade you can't use, and act only as a point.
;For notes section
;For notes section
:October 2023 - Clarifies that the point of the sword and dagger can also be used to strike your opponent.
:January 2024 - Clarifies that the point of the sword and dagger can also be used to strike your opponent.
<hr>
<hr>
;Was 2.6.2.4, would have been 6.2.4
;Was 2.6.2.4, would have been 6.2.4
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:Tip cuts are an accepted part of fencing combat in Lochac.
:Tip cuts are an accepted part of fencing combat in Lochac.
;For notes section
;For notes section
:October 2023 - Tip cuts are an accepted part of fencing combat in Lochac, so the previous requirement to agree to use them has been removed.
:January 2024 - Tip cuts are an accepted part of fencing combat in Lochac, so the previous requirement to agree to use them has been removed.
<hr>
<hr>


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:Adds clarity around when killing from behind can be used. Marshals will be able to add additional restrictions (such as "outside of 120 degrees of the front arc"), but this is very difficult to clearly legislate.
:Adds clarity around when killing from behind can be used. Marshals will be able to add additional restrictions (such as "outside of 120 degrees of the front arc"), but this is very difficult to clearly legislate.
;For notes section:
;For notes section:
:October 2023 - Clarification added for when killing from behind may be used, and allows marshals to add additional restrictions
:January 2024 - Clarification added for when killing from behind may be used, and allows marshals to add additional restrictions
<hr>
<hr>


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:Clarifies standard practice that marshals do not need full protection when the only additional threat is a rubber band gun.
:Clarifies standard practice that marshals do not need full protection when the only additional threat is a rubber band gun.
;For notes section
;For notes section
:October 2023 - Clarifation added that marshals do not need full armour when rubber band guns are the only additional threat.
:January 2024 - Clarifation added that marshals do not need full armour when rubber band guns are the only additional threat.
<hr>
<hr>
;6.5.4 in Rubber band guns
;6.5.4 in Rubber band guns
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:Formalising standrd practice
:Formalising standrd practice
;For note section
;For note section
:October 2023 - Clarification that marshals may amend scenario rules to make objects indestructable or proof against shots.
:January 2024 - Clarification that marshals may amend scenario rules to make objects indestructable or proof against shots.
<hr>
<hr>


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:Formalise standard practice
:Formalise standard practice
;For notes section
;For notes section
:October 2023 - Reminder to have your rubber band gun inspected by a marshal if it is struck by any weapon other than a rubber band to ensure that it is still safe to use.
:January 2024 - Reminder to have your rubber band gun inspected by a marshal if it is struck by any weapon other than a rubber band to ensure that it is still safe to use.
<hr>
<hr>
;Was 2.6.5.2, now 6.6.2 in Defensive objects
;Was 2.6.5.2, now 6.6.2 in Defensive objects
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:Some marshals and fencers are unclear if this is legal/safe or not, despite existing language allowing it.
:Some marshals and fencers are unclear if this is legal/safe or not, despite existing language allowing it.
;For notes section
;For notes section
:October 2023 - When you throw your cloak at your opponent, it may block their vision while in the air, but you may not throw it to cover their face or to trip them.
:January 2024 - When you throw your cloak at your opponent, it may block their vision while in the air, but you may not throw it to cover their face or to trip them.
<hr>
<hr>


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:You can parry your opponent's defensive objects too, but if your action results in a legal blow from your opponent, you must take it.
:You can parry your opponent's defensive objects too, but if your action results in a legal blow from your opponent, you must take it.
;For notes section
;For notes section
:October 2023 - A reminder that legal blows from cuts or thrusts that occur while you are attempting to parry with part of your body are still legal blows.
:January 2024 - A reminder that legal blows from cuts or thrusts that occur while you are attempting to parry with part of your body are still legal blows.
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:Clarification. Adds an example of what might be grasping an opponent, and makes it clear that brief incidental contact is legal.
:Clarification. Adds an example of what might be grasping an opponent, and makes it clear that brief incidental contact is legal.
;For notes section
;For notes section
:October 2023 - Added an example of what might be grasping an opponent, and makes it clear that brief incidental contact is legal.
:January 2024 - Added an example of what might be grasping an opponent, and makes it clear that brief incidental contact is legal.
<hr>
<hr>


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:Some fencers have been known to circle a blade with an index and thumb, claiming this is not grasping the blade. This is unacceptable and unchivalric "rules lawyering" to take advantage of an unclear rule.
:Some fencers have been known to circle a blade with an index and thumb, claiming this is not grasping the blade. This is unacceptable and unchivalric "rules lawyering" to take advantage of an unclear rule.
;For notes section
;For notes section
:October 2023 - Examples of blade grasping have been included, as this was previously unclear.
:January 2024 - Examples of blade grasping have been included, as this was previously unclear.


;6.6.8 in Defensive objects
;6.6.8 in Defensive objects
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:Accidental overextension of opponent's joints has been observed repeatedly, especially when taking control of a spear where the fighter is unable to drop the object. This emphasises the importance of control and that, should there be an incident, the burden is on the fighter who performed the action to justify their action.
:Accidental overextension of opponent's joints has been observed repeatedly, especially when taking control of a spear where the fighter is unable to drop the object. This emphasises the importance of control and that, should there be an incident, the burden is on the fighter who performed the action to justify their action.
;For notes section
;For notes section
:October 2023 - Following a number of incidents of accidental overextension of an opponent's joints, rule 6.6.8 has been added as a reminder to take care.
:January 2024 - Following a number of incidents of accidental overextension of an opponent's joints, rule 6.6.8 has been added as a reminder to take care.

Revision as of 08:09, 23 December 2023

Was 2.6.2.2, now 6.2.2 in Striking your opponent
Was
You are not allowed to strike your opponent with any other part of the sword or dagger except the blade.
Now
You are not allowed to strike your opponent with any other part of the sword or dagger except the blade and point.
Functional change
None, clarification
Reason
Follows discussions as to whether a blade and point are different, considering construction of spear heads which obviously have a blade you can't use, and act only as a point.
For notes section
January 2024 - Clarifies that the point of the sword and dagger can also be used to strike your opponent.

Was 2.6.2.4, would have been 6.2.4
Was
You and your opponent need to agree to allow the use of tip cuts before the bout.
Now
Removed
Subsequent rules renumbered
Functional change
Opponents no longer need to agree to the use of tip cuts beforre they can be used.
Reason
Tip cuts are an accepted part of fencing combat in Lochac.
For notes section
January 2024 - Tip cuts are an accepted part of fencing combat in Lochac, so the previous requirement to agree to use them has been removed.

Was 2.6.2.1, now 6.3 Killing from behind
What was 2.6.2.1 Killing from behind has been renumbered to 6.3 to avoid a numbering clash with 6.2 Striking your opponent's sub-rules.
What was 2.6.2.2 Killing a gunner has been moved to be part of 3.3 Gunners
  • Subsequent rules have been renumbered.

6.3.3 and 4 in Killing from behind
Insert new rules
6.3.3 - You must use "killing from behind" when you are behind the line of your opponent's shoulders. Marshals may further restrict this angle at their discretion.
6.3.4 - If "killing from behind" is not allowed in the scenario, you may not strike your opponent while behind the line of your opponent's shoulders.
Functional change
Clarification added for when killing from behind may be used, and allows marshals to add additional restrictions
Reason
Adds clarity around when killing from behind can be used. Marshals will be able to add additional restrictions (such as "outside of 120 degrees of the front arc"), but this is very difficult to clearly legislate.
For notes section
January 2024 - Clarification added for when killing from behind may be used, and allows marshals to add additional restrictions

Was 2.6.4.1 and 2.6.4.1.a , now 6.5.1 in Rubber band guns
Was
You can use a rubber band gun for melee combat, or for single combat that is not a tournament, such as bouting.
(a) In accordance with the Rules of the Lists, rubber band guns are not allowed to be used within the Lists of a tournament.
Now
Loaded rubber band guns are not allowed to be used in the Lists of a tournament. Unloaded rubber band guns can be used for all forms of single combat and melee as parrying devices.
(b) now 6.5.2 and subsequent rules renumbered.
Functional change
None
Reason
Bouting is not defined, and a bout is usually a measure of action in a tournament. Combined 1 and a as it's explanation of the rule, and 2 is a separate rule about armouring appropriately.
For notes section
Not required, just simplifying language.

Was 2.6.4.1.b, now 6.52 in Rubber band guns
Was
When rubber band guns are used, all people on the field must be wearing protective equipment, and any unarmoured spectators must be kept further away than the effective range of the weapon.
Now
When rubber band guns are used, all people on the field must be wearing protective equipment, and any unarmoured spectators must be kept further away than the effective range of the weapon. Marshals can wear head protection (as per section 8.3) as a minimum.
Functional change
None. Clarifies standard practice that marshals do not need full protection when the only additional threat is a rubber band gun.
Reason
Clarifies standard practice that marshals do not need full protection when the only additional threat is a rubber band gun.
For notes section
January 2024 - Clarifation added that marshals do not need full armour when rubber band guns are the only additional threat.

6.5.4 in Rubber band guns
Insert new rule and renumber subsequent rules
Marshals may alter these rules to allow some objects to be indestructible and "proof" against shots, but must make this clear before lay on is called.
Functional change
Marshals may alter the scenario rules to allow some objects to be indestructible and "proof" against shots, but must make this clear before lay on is called.
Reason
Formalising standrd practice
For note section
January 2024 - Clarification that marshals may amend scenario rules to make objects indestructable or proof against shots.

Was 2.6.5.3 in Defensive objects, moved to 6.5.8 in Rubber band guns
Was
If you defend yourself with a rubber band gun and it is damaged, you will have to check with the marshal if the rubber band gun still meets the rules to be used as a weapon.
If your rubber band gun is struck by a weapon other than a rubber band, you must have it reinspected by a marshal to ensure it is not damaged or unsafe before you use it again.
Functional change
None, formalises standard practice
Reason
Formalise standard practice
For notes section
January 2024 - Reminder to have your rubber band gun inspected by a marshal if it is struck by any weapon other than a rubber band to ensure that it is still safe to use.

Was 2.6.5.2, now 6.6.2 in Defensive objects
Was
You are not allowed to strike your opponent with a shield, rigid defensive object or rubber band gun.
Now
You are not allowed to strike your opponent with a shield, rigid defensive object or rubber band gun. Fleeting, incidental contact is allowed.
Functional change
None
Reason
Clarification
For notes section
Not required

Was 2.6.5.4.c, now 6.6.3.c in Defensive objects
Was
you can throw your cloak, or another type of non-rigid object, at your opponent to slow down their attack or defence, or as a distraction.
Now
you can throw your cloak, or another type of non-rigid object, at your opponent to slow down their attack or defence, or as a distraction. This may include briefly blocking your opponent's vision when the cloak is in front of them in the air.
Functional change
Clarification that this is allowed
Reason
Some marshals and fencers are unclear if this is legal/safe or not, despite existing language allowing it.
For notes section
January 2024 - When you throw your cloak at your opponent, it may block their vision while in the air, but you may not throw it to cover their face or to trip them.

Was 2.5.4.d, now 6.6.3.d in Defensive Objects
Was
you must not deliberately throw your cloak over your opponent's face, or to trip them - if the cloak falls over their face, a hold should be called.
Now
you must not throw your cloak over your opponent's face, or to trip them. If the cloak falls over their face, of the fallen cloak becomes a trip hazard, a hold should be called.
Functional change
Mentions fallen cloak as a trip hazard as a reason to call a hold.
Reason
Clarifies and enhances safety.
For notes section
Not required, covered by previous note.

Was 2.6.5.5, now 6.6.4 in Defensive objects
Was
You can parry your opponent's weapon with any part of your body in a controlled action, such as using your gloved hand to deflect or push against the blade.
Now
You can parry your opponent's weapon or other equipment with any part of your body in a controlled action, such as using your gloved hand to deflect or push against the blade. However, any thrust or cut that that occurs as a result of that contact will count as a good blow, regardless of your intentions or who started the action.
Functional change
You can parry your opponent's defensive objects too, but if your action results in a legal blow from your opponent, you must take it.
Reason
You can parry your opponent's defensive objects too, but if your action results in a legal blow from your opponent, you must take it.
For notes section
January 2024 - A reminder that legal blows from cuts or thrusts that occur while you are attempting to parry with part of your body are still legal blows.

Was 2.6.5.6, now 6.6.5 in Defensive objects
Was
You can use your hand to parry your opponent's weapon or wrist. This is a change from the previous rules. You are not allowed to grasp your opponent.
Now
You can use your hand to parry your opponent's weapon or wrist. You are not allowed to grasp your opponent. Grasping includes, but is not limited to, taking hold of any part of your opponent with your hand. Fleeting incidental contact is allowed.
Functional change
None
Reason
Clarification. Adds an example of what might be grasping an opponent, and makes it clear that brief incidental contact is legal.
For notes section
January 2024 - Added an example of what might be grasping an opponent, and makes it clear that brief incidental contact is legal.

Was 2.6.5.8, now 6.6.7
Was
You can briefly hold your opponent's blade to control it, but both of you must agree to use grasping during the bout. Grasping should be for no more than a couple of seconds, so that you do not start wrestling for the blade.
Now
If both you and your opponent agree to use blade grasping during a bout, you can briefly hold your opponent’s blade to control it. Grasping should be for no more than a couple of seconds, so that you do not start wrestling for the blade. Blade grasping includes, but is not limited to, taking hold of an opponent's blade with your hand, or circling a blade with fingers, such as index and thumb in an "OK" sign as shown in figure 1.
Figure 1. Circling a blade with finger and thumb is an example of blade grasping.
.
Functional change
Examples of blade grasping included.
Reason
Some fencers have been known to circle a blade with an index and thumb, claiming this is not grasping the blade. This is unacceptable and unchivalric "rules lawyering" to take advantage of an unclear rule.
For notes section
January 2024 - Examples of blade grasping have been included, as this was previously unclear.
6.6.8 in Defensive objects
Insert new rule
When grasping, parrying, or otherwise controlling your opponent's weapon or body (such as by parrying the wrist), you must ensure you do so in a safe manner. You must avoid wrenching, twisting or pressing a joint beyond natural limits.
Functional change
Reminds fighters that these actions hold risk of hurting their opponent, so must be carried out carefully.
Reason
Accidental overextension of opponent's joints has been observed repeatedly, especially when taking control of a spear where the fighter is unable to drop the object. This emphasises the importance of control and that, should there be an incident, the burden is on the fighter who performed the action to justify their action.
For notes section
January 2024 - Following a number of incidents of accidental overextension of an opponent's joints, rule 6.6.8 has been added as a reminder to take care.